Dear Dan Savage,

[chavvah]

Oh no you didn't!

Actually, I'm not really that surprised. But it still merited a mention. Booo.

ETA:

Okay, here is me explaining my point of view a bit more concertedly.

I am not saying the guy was wrong for not being attracted to his partner anymore--it happens. God knows it's happened to me before, although it didn't really have anything to do with weight. Sometimes you just fall out of lust with someone. And as frequently as I disagree with Dan Savage, I also don't believe he is wrong for advising the guy to talk to his partner about his issue.

I did think, however, that the way Savage worded his answer could have been a lot less negative towards women who happen to be fat and who are happy with their health and the way they look. Women like me, for example. I don't particularly like my movements to be described using the word "waddle"--I don't waddle. I am actually very graceful.

I don't like it being assumed that all of my problems will be solved if I lose weight--the guy mentions a lot of other health issues his wife has, such as bad skin, smelly gas, poor eating habits, etc, yet the weight issue is the one that gets fixated on, and the only one Dan makes light of.

In recent columns, he has advised a woman who wasn't sexually attracted to her nice, loving partner to reconsider whether she wanted to continue the relationship, and counseled a gay man who thought his partner was getting a bit pudgy to move on or risk subconsciously sabotaging the relationship. But in this week's response, his advice is laden with implicit blame:

Try saying something like this: "Honestly, I love you, but I'm not as physically attracted as I'd like to be. Can I help you work out a bit?"

and

It's not that hard to say, "You have gotten fat and unattractive and my sex drive is nil, so can we do something about it before I bail on you?"

and my personal favourite,

Open communication means revealing your thoughts so the other person can take action. Which sometimes means saying, "Unless you take up jogging and lose 35 pounds, sweetie, I'm going to have a hard time being sexually excited about you." The partner either laces up the running shoes or they waddle on with their life.

I don't know, it's possible that I'm overreacting. When you deal with that negative attitude every time you eat a cookie in public, it's hard not to. But I feel that his language was very telling, particularly since this is not his first time dealing with the issue of a partner becoming less attracted--or even a partner becoming less attracted because of weight gain.

Comments

Probably asking for trouble here, but...

[october31st.livejournal.com]

Well, I feel like the *guy* was the one who said he was not attracted to her anymore (as Dan Savage has said a ways back, it can make a big difference when the body of the person you're turned on by undergoes big changes, whether it's gaining or losing a ton of weight, or the myriad other health and hygiene issues it seems this woman has). Physical attraction is not the biggest, but still a major part of a romantic relationship, and for a relationship to work on all levels the partners must both be healthy on all levels - and her overall description did not sound healthy to me. The one thing I'd fault Savage for is that he didn't tell the dude to check in with WHY she might have changed so much (is she depressed, unsatisfied herself?)

And yes, the image was stupid, but that's the illustrator's/editor's fault, not Savage's.

Re: Probably asking for trouble here, but...

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

No, that's fair. I should probably qualify my response to the column a bit further so you don't get the wrong idea about what I'm saying.

I am not saying the guy was wrong for not being attracted to his partner anymore--it happens. God knows it's happened to me before, although it didn't really have anything to do with weight. Sometimes you just fall out of lust with someone. And as frequently as I disagree with Dan Savage, I also don't believe he is wrong for advising the guy to talk to his partner about his issue.

I did think, however, that the way Savage worded his answer could have been a lot less negative towards women who happen to be fat and who are happy with their health and the way they look. Women like me, for example. I don't particularly like my movements to be described using the word "waddle"--I don't waddle. I am actually very graceful.

I don't like it being assumed that all of my problems will be solved if I lose weight--the guy mentions a lot of other health issues his wife has, such as bad skin, smelly gas, poor eating habits, etc, yet the weight issue is the one that gets fixated on, and the only one Dan makes light of.

In recent columns, he has advised a woman who wasn't sexually attracted to her nice, loving partner (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=429049) to reconsider whether she wanted to continue the relationship, and counseled a gay man who thought his partner was getting a bit pudgy (http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=433774) to move on or risk subconsciously sabotaging the relationship. But in this week's response, his advice is laden with implicit blame:

Try saying something like this: "Honestly, I love you, but I'm not as physically attracted as I'd like to be. Can I help you work out a bit?"

and

It's not that hard to say, "You have gotten fat and unattractive and my sex drive is nil, so can we do something about it before I bail on you?"

and my personal favourite,

Open communication means revealing your thoughts so the other person can take action. Which sometimes means saying, "Unless you take up jogging and lose 35 pounds, sweetie, I'm going to have a hard time being sexually excited about you." The partner either laces up the running shoes or they waddle on with their life.

I don't know, it's possible that I'm overreacting. When you deal with that negative attitude every time you eat a cookie in public, it's hard not to. But I feel that his language was very telling, particularly since this is not his first time dealing with the issue of a partner becoming less attracted--or even a partner becoming less attracted because of weight gain.

I'm going to copy-paste this into my main post as well so I can better elucidate my point of view.

[archaica.livejournal.com]

I think Savage was right in encouraging honesty, but perhaps wrong in encouraging brutal, hurtful honesty.

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

I like how you said what I said, but I took about 1000 words longer to say it. ;)

[archaica.livejournal.com]

Heh :) I do aim for concision!

I actually admire Dan Savage's rather brutal realism about relationship situations - his answer to the next letter right after that one was spot-on and what was needed, a bucket of cold ice water on the letter-writer - but going on the evidence to ask someone to deliver that bucket by proxy is wrong, because a) who knows if the facts are as represented? She may have "gotten fat" because she had his kid! b) The guy sounds from his verbiage like a twit who couldn't string two clauses together withough using "totally" or "gnarly", usually next to one another.

I think if this guy is dissatisfied with his partner, then he does owe her an explanation of why he's dissatisfied. But starting the conversation out with "Sooooo-ee!!" may not be the best course of action.

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the guy's language in his letter definitely set the tone for Savage's response. The gay guy who wrote in about his partner's weight gain was more respectful, saying something to the effect of, "He's great, but he's bear-shaped and it's not my thing"--which (rightfully) makes it his issue and not the partner's. The guy in this week's letter seems to be actively blaming his wife for not being "hot".

Again, I'm not saying that it's wrong to not be attracted to someone anymore (you can't exactly stop it from happening) but the last thing a person should do is blame the partner. It's not their fault--presumably they are still attracted to you.

[archaica.livejournal.com]

re: 1st paragraph: IAWTC.

Attraction is attraction - it is what it is. It's nobody's "fault" - now, how you deal with it, that can be cause for blame or not.

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

YES. That is my argument against cheating, as well. I know you can't control being attracted to someone else, but you don't just trip and fall on someone one day and go, "Whoops! Did we just have sex there?" It is a conscious decision.

[archaica.livejournal.com]

"Oh! I fell on his penis! Oh! Heavens! I keep falling onto his penis, over and over! Will no one save me from this deep dicking!"

Srsly.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

As a friend of mine used to memorably put it, "you can't say you slipped and landed balls-deep in someone else's cooter."

Yep. The answer to "I'm not attracted to my partner" and "I want to cheat" is always the same - either talk to your partner and work through it, or be up-front about the fact that this relationship is done and move on. There's no call for unnecessary cruelty, either by slinging malicious remarks or cheating first and *then* leaving.

[rolypolypony.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly.

[hagdinvincible.livejournal.com]

I kinda had some problems with that one as well, and my mind leapt instantly to the previous columns you mentioned. *ponders, gets cranky* WTF?? There's NO way a conversation that starts out "I'm not attracted to you any more because you've gained weight" is going to end up having ANY positive impact . . . not with the way our society has structured the importance of weight/attractiveness in self-image and sense of worth. Anything that was said after that would be blotted out by the just plain mean. :-(

That's my take on it, anyway.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Those are exactly the lines that I found objectionable, too. (You are, incidentally, not only graceful but gorgeous!) There's no reason to use vicious, deliberately hurtful language to someone you are supposed to love. On top of which, maybe if she fixed the related issues - better diet, skin care, maybe counseling to deal with what may be depression or other underlying motivation that's worse for *her* than for some guy who wants to have sex with her - she'd be more attractive to him even if she didn't drop a pound.

In fact, were I in that relationship, I'd be out the door the minute he said "Honey, you've gotten fat." Call it waddling on with my life (to which I'd say, fuck you), but what's the point of sticking around so that this person can harass and guilt-trip me for a few more years? Would there be regular weigh-ins to make sure I was still acceptable to him, perhaps stealthy laxatives and steam baths the day before so I could "pass," the way supermodels and jockeys have to live? No, thanks.

Besides, I notice Savage didn't address two points that get made fairly often when the "I'm not attracted anymore" problem comes up : first, maybe this is just an excuse for Sir Skinny Asshole to dump her, and second, we have only his word that not only is he thin and in shape now but WILL BE FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. Jeez.

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

(You are, incidentally, not only graceful but gorgeous!)

Aw, thanks. I was actually wondering whether any of my pals would respond to the 'graceful' comment with, "But don't you remember that time at my house when you belly-flopped into the punch fountain?" or whatever. So far no one has, which is nice of them. ;)

[archaica.livejournal.com]

Heh :)

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure the only reason you didn't say it is because I've never been to your house. :P

[archaica.livejournal.com]

Tee-hee!! :)

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Well, I like to think "graceful" and "clumsy" aren't mutually exclusive, but I have ulterior motives. ;)

[dontmentionlove.livejournal.com]

Wait...you belly-flopped onto my punch fountain? where was I when this happened? oh wait, now i remember, i'm fat, so I guess I was probably eating cookies... because i was too distracted with my love of food to complete my jury duty. srsly.

sometimes i wonder if it is in fact rare for people to love each other for their possession of anything other than a fleeting superficial beauty. columns like this one don't help.

the fem theory in me makes me incapable of reading columns like this without filling in the details the writer barely hints at so as to bring the larger classist, agist, fatphobic, misogynist patriarchal context into full focus.

Here's what I get when I read this: "wow when we were young and addicted to heroin and didn't give a shit about the silverfish in the bathtub and doing laundry, our life was so punk rock and hot. now that there's all this adult stuff to deal with"--keeping a house and marriage in tact involves much more than just the "cleaning" and affirmations this guy seems to think it does--"i'm just not feelin' it."

I find it revealing that his definition of being a good husband involves telling his wife he loves her and doing some (light?) cleaning. He talks about her helping him achieve his goals (which includes becoming captain Buff 'n Stuff, but at the sacrifice of what???) but there is no mention of her own, or about why she might be "letting herself go."

We've talked at length about how the body type en vogue is always a reflection of what's available only to a select few with money and leisure, so I probably don't need to point out that if this dude has had increasing time to be some sort of Punk Rock Adonis, he probably has had to let other things, related to her and their relationship slide.

I also find it disturbing that he implies that he was "more unattractive" at the outset of their relationship, suggesting that she accepted him for who he was, but he was only down so long as she wasn't keeping food down.

grah!

[rosewater.livejournal.com]

I think it's pretty clear at this point that Dan Savage can't give good advice about fat. I mean seriously, I'm all for honest and open communication, but first of all a) if they're writing to an advice columnist, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW, so please stop telling them it's as simple as honest communication because that's not helpful and b) only douchebags excuse cruelty as honesty. This guy WILL ruin his relationship if he follows Savage's advice, which is probably fine -- I mean, he's not attracted to her anymore, sometimes you just let it go -- but the girlfriend will probably be collateral damage. Not that Savage gives a shit about the mental health of some fat chick.

[meestagoat.livejournal.com]

The thing that especially sticks out to me in this instance of Dan being a douche is the fact that many of the supposed faults of the woman may all be related to food issues in the first place. Weight gain? Gas? Poor eating habits? Sounds like either a) she might have some medical issue that needs checking out, or b) she doesn't have the most intuitive relationship to food in the first place. Saying "Gee honey, you're so fat I'm going to divorce you" is NOT going to magically make her want more broccoli, you know? I mean, this seems like a classic case in which a shift to "healthier" eating and a little more exercise would probably clear up some of the other problems, including the depression and self-esteem stuff--which will almost certainly make her more attractive to her husband, but which is pretty damn sure not to make her lose 35 pounds.

[chavvah.livejournal.com]

There is definitely a right way and a wrong way to have a conversation with your partner about their health. I have personally experienced the wrong way, which was, essentially, "If you lost some weight maybe your allergies would go away." Eh, what?

I actually liked the suggestion of starting a garden together, because it's something they can do as a couple. And if he really thinks exercise is the answer, why not go to the gym together too, or take dance lessons, or join a sports team? (Because I'm quite certain that the husband is no Mr. Universe himself.)

And yeah, the arbitrary number of 35 pounds is another thing that ticked me off. The guy never said how much weight his wife 'had' to lose to become attractive to him again, and the idea of a magic number is just generally ridiculous. What if she did lose 35 pounds and he still didn't want to sleep with her?

[slammerkinbabe.livejournal.com]

Without going to that specific article because I just don't feel like being pissed off by it right now, I will say that although Dan Savage's style of writing is amusing enough, and sometimes he hits the nail on the head, he is also sometimes judgmental, misogynistic, and just plain assholic. It sounds as though this is one of those times.

[songfta.livejournal.com]

(This is cross-posted from archiaca's LJ response to your post...)

Okay, I went back and read the original "Hawt And Royally Depressed" article, and while I disagree with the way Savage frames the message, I can't argue with his suggestion of being open and honest.

It's all a matter of framing the message, and I had to cross this bridge in my own relationship. It's not easy to be tactful or helpful in these situations, and there are a number of factors that enter into the whole equation: overall happiness with life, with work, with love, with friends, with hobbies, etc. It's not always a simple "I love you, you're perfect, now change" scenario, which is more-or-less what Savage originally recommended (well, perhaps not the middle part of that phrase).

With my own situation, I have found a lot of things to love about living in DC: a great job, great friends, political involvement, and a cycling community. That last one has gotten me back on the bike and, as a side-effect of all the riding, I've lost a bit of weight. Whereas for sprite, she feels more isolated from her family, her oldest, best friends, and from involvement. When we first moved down here, we were both deeply involved in presidential politics, which was a great motivator for her, too. But since 2004, her depression has caused her to shut down a bit, with the various side-effects that come with simply doing nothing.

And we've discussed it. And it's been tough, but things have worked out well. She's gotten more active with getting involved in the community. She's found knitting. She's found more friends down here who aren't common friends, so she can have her own group of folks with whom to hang (like me with my cycling buddies). She walks a lot more, and spends time outside during the sunlight hours when she can (she has mild SAD). We also work out together a few times a month, which she appreciates.

She's also spoken to a therapist (without any suggestion of doing so by me), and that has worked wonders.

But a good, constructive, long-lasting relationship takes a lot of honesty and openness. And part of that is constructive criticism. What Savage directly suggested was much more raw and negative, and would be interpreted as an attack by somebody who is already down and/or self-conscious. But the basic gist of the honesty is something to keep in mind and to voice before it becomes an irreconcilable difference that forever clefts the relationship.

Just my $0.02. And thanks for pointing that out, as finding Savage's column here in DC is tough.